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[mårt]

You do realize that most of what you just wrote is pure speculation. We found an invoice from the OROLOGERIA SVIZZERA which clearly states the watch was a ROLEX watch. This is no longer just an opinion. It's there in black and white, stated by the ultimate authority, the OROLOGERIA SVIZZERA and Giuseppe Panerai.

As for the beginning of my "career', please do not spread unverified rumours about me. Do you know this for a fact or did you read this on the profile of a known charlatan who was hired by the counterfeiter duo Rinaldi/Lombardi to discredit me? A few years ago, I assembled 3 vintage homage watches for myself. Never have I claimed they were anything but homages, nor have I showed them in public. Does this make me a faker? There are a number of celebrated Paneristi who did the same. Are they fakers too?

Also, if I were a world renowned faker, as the other side likes to call me, where are all the fakes I made? Where are all the people I scammed?

Please put yourself in my shoes for a moment. If you had exposed a major counterfeiting gang and they were trying to discredit you on and offline, would you like it if people keep perpetuating those lies? Probably not. Please be more mindful. Thank you.

Cheers, Jose

Hi Jose,

I feel that it is very telling that you answer this one post and not the other speculations. What it tells though, is perhaps up to someone else.

Anyhow, in your article you take a big leap between 3646 and GPF 2/56. What do we know about the design and manufacturing of the different 6152 models?

 

[pereztroika]

Hi Jose,

I feel that it is very telling that you answer this one post and not the other speculations. What it tells though, is perhaps up to someone else.

Anyhow, in your article you take a big leap between 3646 and GPF 2/56. What do we know about the design and manufacturing of the different 6152 models?

I haven't read everything. What were the other speculations?

Here's a timeline of the Rolex references:
1936-1939: Ref. 2533
1940 - 1944: Ref. 3646
1952/53: Ref. 6152
1954: Ref. 6154
1955: Ref. 6152/1

And these are the Panerai references:
1956: Mare Nostrum prototype + GPF 2/56

Here's a picture of a Ref. 6152 caseback. What does it say? REGISTERED DESIGN – MODELE DEPOSE.

Let's have a look at a regular Rolex Oyster watch from the same period. Same wording, same design.

I think this speaks for itself. Btw, I updated the article with some additional info and Rolex documents.

Some people pointed out, the cushion case was not typical for Rolex. This is absolutely not true. The earliest Rolex Oyster watches from 1926 had a cushion design. Have a look at the watch in the picture below. What do you see? It's only 26mm but the proportions are almost identical.

And here's the oversized version with a diameter of 47mm. This is a digital reconstruction of Ref. 2533 according to the famous picture published in a Rolex retailer catalague from 1935.

The 1935 catalogue. Check the upper right corner.

As mentioned, I updated the article with some relevant information:
https://perezcope.com/2019/05/27/rolex-panerai-3646-service-invoice-from-1955/



Cheers, Jose

 

[mårt]

I haven't read everything. What were the other speculations?

Here's a timeline of the Rolex references:
1936-1939: Ref. 2533
1940 - 1944: Ref. 3646
1952/53: Ref. 6152
1954: Ref. 6154
1955: Ref. 6152/1

And these are the Panerai references:
1956: Mare Nostrum prototype + GPF 2/56

Here's a picture of a Ref. 6152 caseback. What does it say? REGISTERED DESIGN – MODELE DEPOSE.

Let's have a look at a regular Rolex Oyster watch from the same period. Same wording, same design.

I think this speaks for itself. Btw, I updated the article with some additional info and Rolex documents.

Some people pointed out, the cushion case was not typical for Rolex. This is absolutely not true. The earliest Rolex Oyster watches from 1926 had a cushion design. Have a look at the watch in the picture below. What do you see? It's only 26mm but the proportions are almost identical.

And here's the oversized version with a diameter of 47mm. This is a digital reconstruction of Ref. 2533 according to the famous picture published in a Rolex retailer catalague from 1935.

The 1935 catalogue. Check the upper right corner.

As mentioned, I updated the article with some relevant information:
https://perezcope.com/2019/05/27/rolex-panerai-3646-service-invoice-from-1955/



Cheers, Jose

Good answer. Thank you.

 

[Charles_]

Inte min men jäklar vad tuff PAM507 är. Skulle inte tacka nej till klocka i brons

 

[mårt]

Inte min men jäklar vad tuff PAM507 är. Skulle inte tacka nej till klocka i brons

Du gillar Gångreservsindikatorn?

 

[Eqn]

 

[evki]

I haven't read everything. What were the other speculations?

Here's a timeline of the Rolex references:
1936-1939: Ref. 2533
1940 - 1944: Ref. 3646
1952/53: Ref. 6152
1954: Ref. 6154
1955: Ref. 6152/1

And these are the Panerai references:
1956: Mare Nostrum prototype + GPF 2/56

Here's a picture of a Ref. 6152 caseback. What does it say? REGISTERED DESIGN – MODELE DEPOSE.

Let's have a look at a regular Rolex Oyster watch from the same period. Same wording, same design.

I think this speaks for itself. Btw, I updated the article with some additional info and Rolex documents.

Some people pointed out, the cushion case was not typical for Rolex. This is absolutely not true. The earliest Rolex Oyster watches from 1926 had a cushion design. Have a look at the watch in the picture below. What do you see? It's only 26mm but the proportions are almost identical.

And here's the oversized version with a diameter of 47mm. This is a digital reconstruction of Ref. 2533 according to the famous picture published in a Rolex retailer catalague from 1935.

The 1935 catalogue. Check the upper right corner.

As mentioned, I updated the article with some relevant information:
https://perezcope.com/2019/05/27/rolex-panerai-3646-service-invoice-from-1955/



Cheers, Jose

Nobody is questioning that Rolex manufactured the case and movement but it still says Panerai on the dial - since Rolex allowed it this should mean that the watch was not completely their product. You’re basically accusing Panerai of plagiarism and making it sound like a Panerai watch is not much different than a Domino’s Pizza Datejust. Rolex sold parts to Panerai, not complete watches.

Can you prove that the oversized case of 2533 pre-dates the first Panerai? Who borrowed from whom?

 

[pereztroika]

Nobody is questioning that Rolex manufactured the case and movement. But it still says Panerai on the dial - if Rolex allowed this it means that this was not completely their product. You’re basically accusing Panerai of plagiarism and making it sound like...

I am making it sound like...? Brother, it was Giuseppe Panerai himself who stated Pacciolla's 3646 was a Rolex watch.

Rolex sold parts to Panerai, not complete watches.

Who told you this? Please read the updated article. You can find Rolex invoices which clearly state that complete watches were sent to Florence.

Can you prove that the oversized case of 2533 pre-dates the first Panerai? Who borrowed from whom?

How about the invoice for the very first Ref. 2533 sent to Panerai in Florence? Check the date: Oct. 24, 1935.

And here's the invoice for the first 19 stainless steel examples of Ref. 2533. Date: Jun. 13, 1936. 19 complete watches!

Cheers

Jose

 

[evki]

I am making it sound like...? Brother, it was Giuseppe Panerai himself who stated Pacciolla's 3646 was a Rolex watch.



Who told you this? Please read the updated article. You can find Rolex invoices which clearly state that complete watches were sent to Florence.



How about the invoice for the very first Ref. 2533 sent to Panerai in Florence?

Cheers

Jose

So Rolex developed an oversized watch for the military use at the request from Panerai and set the reference number of 2533. I must have missed the part but how do you know this was the first invoice? You still don’t address the question of why a Rolex watch has Panerai written on the dial and why is Rolex ok with it? The only logical answer is that Rolex never considered these products to be their “own” since they were made-to-order products. Panerai could not call it “a Panerai watch” since Panerai manufactured no watches.

We have a forum member that has his own trademark, Bolm watches. None of the parts are manufactured by the owner of the trademark but it’s still a Bolm watch and not a Miyota or a “put-Chinese-name-here” watch.

 

[mårt]

So Rolex developed an oversized watch for the military use at the request from Panerai and set the reference number of 2533. I must have missed the part but how do you know this was the first invoice? You still don’t address the question of why a Rolex watch has Panerai written on the dial and why is Rolex ok with it? The only logical answer is that Rolex never considered these products to be their “own” since they were made-to-order products. Panerai could not call it “a Panerai watch” since Panerai manufactured no watches.

We have a forum member that has his own trademark, Bolm watches. None of the parts are manufactured by the owner of the trademark but it’s still a Bolm watch and not a Miyota or a “put-Chinese-name-here” watch.

Evki. Come on.

 

[evki]

Evki. Come on.

Just being source-critical

 

[mårt]

Just being source-critical

I do agree with how @pereztroika alludes that there's foul play going on and that feels a bit over the edge. I do also agree with the points he makes. So let's say 1-1 and shake hands.

 

[pereztroika]

Evki. Come on.

Totally agree, c'mon buddy Nothing of what you just said is backed by evidence. You are just perpetuating what is being said in Panerai boutiques or is written in offcial Panerai books that are given away for free.

Anyway, there is a logical explanation for the Radiomir Panerai inscription on the dials. During the fascist period there was push for autarky. A policy was put in place to prepare the country for war by becoming completely independant from the outside world. Italy first, so to say. Buy Italian products was the motto. The Italian dials were most certainly made to disguise the true prevenance of the watches, to be able to sell a foreign product in the first place.

Cheers, Jose

 

[Caravelle33]

I am making it sound like...? Brother, it was Giuseppe Panerai himself who stated Pacciolla's 3646 was a Rolex watch.


Who told you this? Please read the updated article. You can find Rolex invoices which clearly state that complete watches were sent to Florence.


How about the invoice for the very first Ref. 2533 sent to Panerai in Florence? Check the date: Oct. 24, 1935.

And here's the invoice for the first 19 stainless steel examples of Ref. 2533. Date: Jun. 13, 1936. 19 complete watches!

Cheers

Jose

This gives me a problem! I have always said that I am not a Rolex guy and now it turns out that I am.

 

[mårt]

This gives me a problem! I have aleays said that I am not a Rolex guy and now it turns out that I am.

Oh shit. Me too.

 

[Bingoraalf]

Någon som har tips på var man kan få fatt på en OEM mejsel o quick change verktyg?

 

[evki]

Totally agree, c'mon buddy Nothing of what you just said is backed by evidence. You are just perpetuating what is being said in Panerai boutiques or is written in offcial Panerai books that are given away for free.

Anyway, there is a logical explanation for the Radiomir Panerai inscription on the dials. During the fascist period there was push for autarky. A policy was put in place to prepare the country for war by becoming completely independant from the outside world. Italy first, so to say. Buy Italian products was the motto. The Italian dials were most certainly made to disguise the true prevenance of the watches, to be able to sell a foreign product in the first place.

Cheers, Jose

And after the war Rolex just allowed Panerai to sell their watches with Panerai name on it while even the dial was a Rolex product? I totally agree with you that early Panerai watches were for the most part manufactured by Rolex (cases, movements, maybe even dials - like California dials). There are countless examples of pocket- and wristwatches that were manufactured by one company and then sold by another company with their name on the dial. Check out early Cartier watches - JLC marketed identical watches at the same time.

What’s the big deal??

 

[mårt]

Någon som har tips på var man kan få fatt på en OEM mejsel o quick change verktyg?

Hos @Ernesto

 

[Ernesto]

Hos @Ernesto

Jag är på semester till 1 juli

 

[kmg]

Jag är på semester till 1 juli

Glidare...

 

[johnz]

This gives me a problem! I have aleays said that I am not a Rolex guy and now it turns out that I am.

Hahaha, touche!

 

[azcii]

Damn vad mycket jag missade när jag var offline 24h

 

[mårt]

Damn vad mycket jag missade när jag var offline 24h

Jag gissar att du gjorde bra saker ändå.

 

[metamorfos]

Jag gissar att du gjorde bra saker ändå.

Vet inte om jag kallar alla diskussionerna som hänt de senaste 24h bra. Det är bara ett klockmärke vi pratar om, inte kriget i mellanöstern

 

[mårt]

Vet inte om jag kallar alla diskussionerna som hänt de senaste 24h bra. Det är bara ett klockmärke vi pratar om, inte kriget i mellanöstern

Very good point, junior. Make note of it. There are more important things in life.

 

[metamorfos]

Very good point, junior. Make note of it. There are more important things in life.

Någon måste ju skapa en ljus framtid när ni faller av pinnen

 

[Puryeah]

Någon som har tips på var man kan få fatt på en OEM mejsel o quick change verktyg?

Quick change-verktyg vågar jag inte svara på om de har inne men jag köpte iaf en vanlig mejsel på Krons i fredags.

 

[Johan_C]

Min nya sommar klocka 1033, kunde inte motstå Blå Sunburst !
Tack @Ernesto för smidig affär och trevlig semester!

 

[Bingoraalf]

Om inte FedEx tänker snett igen så får jag leverans av en bandsallad till denna

Håller verkligen tummarna, det blir inte tråkigare än svart alligator

 

[Magnusen]

Min nya sommar klocka 1033, kunde inte motstå Blå Sunburst !
Tack @Ernesto för smidig affär och trevlig semester!

Grattis! Blå sunburst, perfekt till sommaren!